This thread is directed towards Dr.D and Dinoiii, please refrain from posting until the doctors have spoken. Then we can take the discuss in the correct direction. Thank you for your cooperation. How extensive are the estrogenic effects of soy protein? Should soy protein be avoided by male bodybuilders?
Neurobehavioral effects have been noted in male organisms of many species that ingest soy protein. This is usually attributable to the effects of phytoestrogens that are inherently present in the form of isoflavones. Increased stress-induced plasma vasopressin concentrations and exaggerated corticosterone responses are seen with soy consumption. Stress, increased aromatase activity, somatic anxiety, a pro-catabolic endocrine balance, modified learning and memory and an uncertain tendency toward general sexually dimorphism? Not right now, I think I'll pass! I'm not really down with the whole metro thing and rather enjoy just being a simple man. There are already too many estro's floating around in the environment to roll the dice with this stuff, unless I have too. I mean, if I'm hungry and all there is is soy I'm not gonna starve either! lol I'm interested to hear dino's take on the whole soy debate.
I will take each of your questions in turn Brent. (1) How extensive the estrogenic effects of soy protein? the dinoiii response: This has been such a long-debated "hot" topic for as long as I can recall in the dietary supplementation world. "estrogen (E)" is very dubious in its presentation..."phytoestrogen (PE)" is as well, probably because various authors equate the terms as readily as they wouldn't understand differences between estrone (E1) vs. estradiol (E2) vs. estriol (E3). But as we know the "estrogenic" properties of those three vary so does the property as suggested between E vs. PE. [For the record, the estrogenic activity of the 3 is E2 > E1 > E3, yet the deleterious nature of such in the male bodybuilder is worse off when E1 predominates - but I'll spare you this drawn out discussion as well as metabolites - I am merely illustrating a point] The confusion with E vs. PE is rather funny - not so much because of the confusion it has caused the layman who tries to understand gibberish of various "expert" (damn I hate this word - often self-professed and nothing more) authors, but moreso because the quoted experts I think have actually convinced themselves that they understand the topic in the first place. We have a couple of things to look at that will probably find me seeping into your second question - but in order they are attribution of PE (namely the soy isoflavones), but also how to differentiate the effects of this versus other components. Soy isoflavones (genestein, diadzein, and the less-often spoke of glycitin) usually can constitute about 40-60% of the running concentration of soy isolate protein. They impart a rather weak AGONISTIC (or PRO-estrogenic) effect, but ALSO they are hypothesized to cause a weak ANTAGONISTIC (or ANTI-estogenic) effect. They kind of are said to impart action like SERMs...but this is a misnomer. The rationale that was employed into original discerning of this debate was many of the pro-estrogenic properties exerted by soy proteins (most notably, the alteration in cholesterol tallies to favorable composition)...well, later studies dispelled the myth that this was a isoflavone effect in the first place, when the soy protein still produced such effects when the isoflavones were essentially separated from the protein. It then was offered that the effects on cholesterol levels were more likely an accurate representation of the various sterol components [Beta sitosterol, Campesterol, Stigmasterol, Brassicasterol, Stigmastanol, and Ergostanol). The problem was then offered that these sterol actually have the potential to be PRO-estrogenic to a degree as well and it is often hypothesized that the nature of such can actually override any potential antagonistic effect that the isoflavones offered in the first place. But they more recently offered up the potential to give off anti-oxidant powers and the like - so it was deemed a potential good thing - even in resistance-trained athletes...but I will move on to your second question becuase I am blurring it a tad... (2) Should soy protein be avoided by male bodybuilders? I can answer this in a word, but I will offer my typical digression first for support and then conclude with my response. We may best be able to quantify the value by looking at pros and cons... PROs of SOY PROTEIN (a) Higher concentration of L-arginine (which could also be an additional rationale for the cholesterol modifications, but the sterols is better supported)...comparatively - animal proteins rule in the lysine department. ( b ) Lipid-lowering effect...this to me is a pro and a con...we are always so concerned with cholesterol values and there is some truth here, however - years ago, the total cholesterol acceptance upper limit was 300...we bumped it down to 200 and have seen an increase in cardiac death rates - what the hell? That's not what was supposed to happen, but my hypothesis is that when we do this, we also take away the potential substrate for androgenic precursor potential...so your left in worse shape and dead in the water on the more prominent endocrinlogic levels, so when it comes to body comp, this may not be the most ideal effect - health ... the jury is still out and part of the great Cholesterol Controversy. I have offered the soy isoflavones as a potential for the lipid-lowering effects. A few studies have shown that when the isoflavones are removed from the soy protein, the protein itself has little hypocholesterolemic activity. Soy isoflavones themselves do not have the same hypocholesterolemic activity as the combination of soy protein and soy isoflavones. Our answer to this discrepency is likely hidden within the sterol concentration as I have already suggested. ( c ) Antioxidant properties...now you cannot devalue this necessity in the life of a prototypical bb. However, one must also consider timing of ingestion because there is an appropriate timing of antioxidants that MUST also be taken into consideration, but often is NOT. (d) Anticarcinogenic: I'm not excited about the prolific pontification here, but alas I digress...there's a lot of money being granted from the soy industry to support these claims and the FDA isn't about to cheat on their bed buddies here. CONS to SOY protein use (a) Impedence to mineral absorption: Soy contains phytic acid, which may bind with certain minerals, such as calcium, magnesium, manganese, zinc, copper and iron, reducing their availability. This can truly be an issue in the life of a bodybuilder and oftentimes this will trump each and every one of the "pros" I listed above, especially if you are NOT ingesting literally double of each of the minerals I have listed here. ( b ) We can argue over the partial agonist/antagonist activity and the different areas suggested to see effects but I, myself am not that interested in hypotheses from petri analysis on this one - and the independent human studies are not compelling enough to say we have an adequate evidence to suggest a "sure fire" answer. ( c ) This goes hand-in-hand with b above. It has been shown that when infants are exposed to the higher levels of phytoestrogens associated with diets including formulas that contain soy, they have significantly smaller testes in the postpubertal era, as well as reduced testosterone and lower sperm counts. WHat the hell? Blame your parents if they gave you a soy-based formula and your off kilter - you can tell em I said it was ok to blame em too dammit! (aside: casein has also been suggested to cause diabetes in later life as well - geesh - what to do, what to do???) (d) In animals fed diets containing equivalent amounts of human consuming moderate amounts of soy as part of their normal diet - serum test, serum androstenedione were DECREASED! (e) Another study - yet in humans found direct inverse correlation between the amount of soy consumed and serum test levels... more soy you eat, the lower your test will be!!! (f) Beyond this, additonal animal studies have found that diets containing large amounts of soy cause an increase in post-feeding plasma cortisol levels. What - why does this happen - well, likely because soy does NOT contain all of the amino acids necessary by the body to initiate de novo protein synthesis. As a result the body secretes cortisol to help it break down muscle and liberate the additional amino acids. Now, this is by no means a laundry list - but it is what I am willing to type before retiring for the night...to me, the answer seems obvious, I will personally not mind a little soy in my diet (minor tallies - approved at 25 grams - to me this is actually about double what I might liberally allow) - but I will NOT seek out a source of it. And during particular times (read: post-workout, pre-bed), I'll let my various counterparts have my share...I am NOT TOUCHING IT WITH A 10-FOOT POLE. I know there are other "mixed-result" studies .... I will let the other guys do the "experimenting" for me. For Christ's sake - small post-pubertal testicles ... everyone look down and then run to the phone and call your parents ... thank em or chew em out! Sincerely, D_
Now, I see as I was typing Dr.D made a much shorter comment than mine - hell it took me over an hour to type that thing....hehe - I am happy to see that we are in virtual agreement though! :lol: The slogan for this thread is obviously: Just say :no: to being a SOY-BOY!!! Good Night all... D_
I get 3 soy protien boosts at Jamba Juice. Only place I'll eat soy protein. Wish they had whey but they dont.
Haha, we do agree, but you are exceedingly more patient than I in your elaborations. You got those mad typing skillz too! (lol) You should teach D. There are not enough fine instructors out there.
Brent, i LOVE how you give directins/rules for some of your posts! can we have open discussion, now? :icon_lol:
Post medical and masters degrees after a triple major in my undergrad pursuits - you happen to learn how to type rather quickly (especially masters degrees with the innumerous papers to write). Nonetheless, you may find it fitting that I did a brief teaching stint back 2000-2001 at the University of Rochester (NY) for anatomy and physiology (virtual fortes). This was for undergrad students in pursuit of medical school, not the medical school itself (at the time I didn't have my own medical degree to teach anyway). I would love to return to something, at least in a minimally part-time capacity at some point (may be sooner than later) - and that is for the sheer joy versus monetary (because we all know monetary value to such a position doesn't exist on a non-tenure tract as well as while not concurrently writing books ... oh, wait a minute... ). Anyway, We should do these kind of Roundtable Discussions more often for the AX forum. D_
Something avid readers of this thread may find somewhat entertaining and pertinent is a piece I wrote for something I call the Daily Drive over at bb.com (written for my body blog daily that you may find entertaining, though it has been on hiatus with my AX Porject Hyde log as is also announced on my blog) that was entitled: Hormonal Chaos: Living in a Land of Giants</span> Introduction I was made fun of today! That's right, my vertically-challenged self had absolutely no comeback when I was called out for being ... gasp ... S-H-O-R-T!!! So, I did what I thought would be the most appropriate move. I suggested that I represented the statistical average for the white male per my New York State driver's license, a woeful 5'9" tall. Thinking I would emerge victorious, I was essentially laughed out of the locker room on this day. Hitting myself in the head ... I should've simply blamed it on estrogen! Hormonal Disarray Although U.S. residents are taller than they were 100 years ago, we are no longer the tallest people in the world. On the average, people in Sweden are about a half inch taller, while the Dutch and Norwegians are a full inch taller. Various Asian cultures are the only subset that don't seem to measure up - Chinese, Japanese, Taiwanese, and so on. These are the only groups that statistically show up below us no matter which source I reference. Terrific I would share the low-end of the totem pole with the tofu/doufu-eating societies gorging themselves with this phytoestrogenic delicacy. No, I am not one to buy into the propaganda that isoflavones, specifically genistein and diadzein and the essential product-whoring suggestions of these items offering good health for women and, especially NOT men. Dinoiii now you've lost it - ragging on my isoflavones Think I am off my rocker? This piece was not meant to pick apart Asian cultures ... not even remotely, but merely offer up suggestion to an appealing point of view that differs from an all too well accepted and appreciated soy industry. In a woman's body, these compounds can dock at estrogen receptors and act like very, very weak estrogens. During perimenopause, when a woman's estrogen fluctuates, rising to very high levels and then dropping below normal, phytoestrogens can help her maintain balance, blocking out estrogen when levels rise excessively high, plus filling in for estrogen when levels are low. When women's production of natural estrogen drops at menopause, isoflavones may provide just enough estrogenic activity to prevent or reduce uncomfortable symptoms, like hot flashes. In a man's body, estrogen levels are already low and when using a phytoestrogen-containing product, it is reasonable to believe that they will dip further provided I am not intending to make profit from this piece. Let's look at the data from a recent journal article from last April: Orwoll E, Lambert LC, Marshall LM, Phipps K, Blank J, Barret-Connor E, Cauley J, Ensrud K, Cummings S. Testosterone and Estradiol among Older Men. J Clin Endocrinol Metab. April 2006, 91 (4): 1336-1344. One of the indirect points to take from this piece was the levels of estradiol and their variation among the American eldely male populace. Of which, hormonal values can be summarized as follows: Total Testosterone: Hispanic > African Americans > Caucasian > Asian Free Testosterone: Hispanic = African Americans > Caucasians > Asian Total Estradiol: Asian > African Americans > Hispanic > Caucasians Free Estradiol: Asian > African Americans > Hispanic > Caucasians Asian Americans had the lowest levels of testosterone, but highest levels of serum estrogens. Coincidence or societal influence? You can be the judge. My relation I was an obese child as you may have read. That said, It is easy to assume I had a lot of circulating estrogens due to high levels of aromatase, an enzyme involved in transforming testosterone to estrogen that is produced both in the liver and in fat cells. Is it the fat that holds your height down as an overweight individual? No, but it is in effect ... likely the estrogen. This discrepancy of estrogen and testosterone is also what is responsible for keeping females shorter, on average, than the prototypical male. Are we becoming an overweight society? Absolutely. Are we significantly being bombarded by outward estrogenic influence? You bet you. This latter scenario has already happened in Asian cultures and it isn't coincidence. Interestingly enough, the average lifespan of the white male has increased from 75 to 79 years at the same time. Coincidence that estrogen does have a positive effect on heart disease and cardiovascular markers such as cholesterol? Unfortunately, the markers like cholesterol are also the source of your androgen precursors as well ... so the cycle becomes quite vicious. <span style="color:yellow">Conclusion Today, I was at a loss for words; but would know how to defend myself the next time I take a hit for my height. The blame is simple and estrogen is at fault. There sure is something to be said about health status and life expectancy, but there is also something to be said about the quality of the life I am extending. Until next time... D_
Thanks roonies... I hope something could be taken... In response to a PM...soy isn't the only environmental estrogen as you are likely well aware ... that "Daily Drive" piece I included is just an example - the trademarked slogan for those short pieces are "Where Health & Fitness Meet Piss, Vinegar, and Wit" and they are kind of relating every day topics to a fitness related topic. Sometimes I am rather challenged to come up with new material on a daily basis if nothing happens, but they have received a lot of positive feedback. I try to keep them short (as compared to some of my other articles people may be familiar with that extend for pages upon pages trying to cover ALL aspects of a topic). So to the PM'er...this only touches the surface...but even dinoiii is only so winded. Thanks again for all the feedback thus far guys D_
Second time through this article and I can attest to the fact that soy is no good. Back when I was trying to figure out some health problems and found out I was lactose intolerant and had Celiacs disease I was taking in whey and soy using soy milk. Well needless to say I could notice the changes in my body and state. I had less libido, and muscles were flat. Now I did not have all the science behind it but did read a few articles (not as good as above) and decided to drop soy. After getting off soy everything went back to normal, so thank you both for the info. Just wish I would have read this a few years back.
I never liked my results from it either. Don't ever be blinded with science and research. You don't need to read proof to know if its working or not working, seeing it first hand from experience is quite superior. If your body tells you it's no good, trust your results more that any studies!
I agree with you guys, I do...but I think that it is a necessary part of the process - the study part that is ... to eliminate confounding variables provided they are controlled for accurately. ddawg did you get a chance to read the tootsie roll daily drive??? Hehe - now that one hits on the science vs. real world debates well. It's true, it's true ... I am a study addict as much as Dr. D is lecithin, however - it is a VERY broad group of studies, because you can't base ANYTHING on one study - that is the media's job...they freak everyone out based on the "newest study that shows x results" --> that said, when you understand how to collective group studies, you start to put something together (studies oftentimes conflict, it is a good scientist that can discern these things). This is what everyone on internet forums hasn't gotten: SCIENCE "PROVES" NOTHING - MERELY "SUPPORTS!" Far too often I see people reading authors' conclusions basing their info off this abstract and that...PUUUHHHHLEASSSE! :down: I am a bit more empirical though than merely trusting my body, my body has lied to me before! :lol: D_
I have not hit the Tootsie Roll one yet but will look for that one specifically and read it tonight. Oh I agree, after seeing what soy was doing to my body then reading the studies I began to understand what in fact was going on. It was like when I was studying theology and came across some "supposed" support for some doctrine, well needless to say they were grasping at straws to support their own ideas.
Well, when you don't know what to do or are investigating a possible solution, study every semi-related article and topic you can get your hands on. Then integrate it into the "big picture" to form you Grand Unified approach to the problem, but this is not the Emperor's New Clothes. If we believed solely based on what we read rather that what we experience subjectively, we'd be swearing up and down the Muscle Tech was the bomb and getting huge on the placebo effect! Seriously, when you don't know better, study and extrapolate using your best, educated guess and the most current knowledge at your disposal, but once you know better, what good is a study? Do not betray yourself by convincing your mind it's not true. Trust your results. The fruit of a tree divulges it's roots.
Agreed - but we all also pontificate from time to time. No one has used every compound, yet we do tend to harbor opinions on them... How would one go about constructing such a view if they didn't have at least "something." If the science bites, I ain't ingesting it personally. hehe - I don't think we are offering different advice at all though Dr.D - what I need to do is post up the "Tootsie Roll" piece from my BodyBlog and you'd see I don't see the two as so mutually exclusive. D_
For everyone that does NOT visit my body blog - shame on you, but I will share the following passage with you... absolute shameless plug, but MANY raved about this one: http://blog.bodybuilding.com/dinoiii/2006/...of-tootsie-pop/ D_
